(latest updated September 6, 2012, except for the plead)
Intro:
The title of this post might appear misleading. But to clarify; the intention when I started this blog (of which this is the first post) was not to start a weapons identifications blog. The idea at the time was to have a platform to present questions that were difficult to handle in 140 characters.
Intro:
The title of this post might appear misleading. But to clarify; the intention when I started this blog (of which this is the first post) was not to start a weapons identifications blog. The idea at the time was to have a platform to present questions that were difficult to handle in 140 characters.
Getting feed-back wasn't as
easy as I had imagined, and over time the focus of this blog did turn to mainly
focus on bringing information about the weapons, used by the Syrian government
army in the present (2012) conflict. But as can be seen, when reading this
post, I started with very little knowledge. Therefore please carefully review the
observations I present and use your own judgment.
Also before you decide what to think of my writings: please read through my latest post (plead added 03/06/2014).
Also before you decide what to think of my writings: please read through my latest post (plead added 03/06/2014).
In this particular case
I was seeking help to identify ordnance fragments displayed in TV-footage of an
attack in Homs, Syria. This was the attack that - together with an unknown
number of local Syrians - killed French journalist Gilles Jacquier. The main
motivation for trying to establish the identities of these weapons was, that who-did-it claims
- in on-line discussions - were built on an understanding, that a certain
weapon had been identified. For some reason I wasn't convinced and decided to
examine that basis (intro added 09/06/2012).
..
What is this?
By this post I'm trying to identify this supposed-to-be weapons part:
 |
| cropped screen shots from an Addounia TV report up-loaded to YouTube (* the version I originally linked to have been removed. This version is in lower resolution, without subtitles, and...without the part relevant to the frames above. But go to 5:43 min in this video instead). |
The images above are from 5:43 in this this video [ WARNING: images are extremely tough to watch ] (* the version I originally linked to have been removed. This version is without subtitles)
The video was taken during and after the attack on a demonstration in the Syrian city Homs that killed 9 people (according to SANA) - one of them being the French journalist Gilles Jacquier.
The camera work was done by Addounia TV a Syrian pro regime channel.
The object I'm seeking to identify looks like aluminium, but could possibly be stainless steel, and the four "wings" can be folded in as indicated on the close up.
From the translation it seems to me that the man showing the object is connecting it to RPGs being fired at the demonstration. A name that sounds like "enegra" is being mentioned, and this is claimed only to be possible to buy from Israel. In this case that would link the suspected attackers with the ultimate enemy, so there is reason to stay sceptical about that.
From the translation it seems to me that the man showing the object is connecting it to RPGs being fired at the demonstration. A name that sounds like "enegra" is being mentioned, and this is claimed only to be possible to buy from Israel. In this case that would link the suspected attackers with the ultimate enemy, so there is reason to stay sceptical about that.
A rifle-grenade named ENERGA was mentioned by others in relation to this. It's a grenade launched from the muzzle of a rifle using an "adapter". This might have to do with the similarity of the names only, but anyway: it made me think that there might be a possibility that the part in the picture could be from some kind of muzzle-launcher.
..
..
Update Jan 18:
I now consider the object identified:
 |
| images sources: Left: from D & B Militaria. Right: cropped frame from an Addounia TV report up-loaded to YouTube. |
It is stabilizer fins from an RPG-7 warhead.
..
Additional information:
(added Jan 18.)
There are two other occurrences of a men showing weapons parts to the camera. The first time the man's speech is interrupted, but at the second occurrence the persons statement is translated into "this belongs to the killers". The meaning apparently being the anti regime groups who he believes to have carried out the attack.
First occurrence (2.09):
Second occurrence (3.27):
In both cases they are holding up a stem of an expended mortar round. From my goggling it seems that the length of the stem, the pattern of the holes and the number and size of the fins correspond with these two quite similar 82 mm mortar rounds:
According to what I've found; the grey one to the left is Chinese and the green to the right is Russian. The stem from the video could look a little thicker, but given the quality of the image it is impossible to measure exactly. Anyway with my limited knowledge - and assuming the Chinese and the Russian rounds are licensed models of each other - I find it unlikely that there should be a type of mortar round with a stem that similar that isn't from the same license programme.
..
My conclusions (so fare):
The weapons types identified would all be unsurprising to find on both sides of the conflict. And even if I have an idea that the anti-regime side doesn't have a lot for mortars, the weapons do not exclude either of the sides as "suspects".
What seems worth investigating is the reason for the man at 6:30 identifying the RPG-part as Israeli.
Some of the different statements about the attack are collected in this Wiki-post about "the Siege of Homs".
There seems to be conflicting opinions of what kind of weapon was used in the attack: some say it was a mortar attack others that it was an RPG attack. If both types of weapons parts in the linked-to video are actually parts of weapons used in the attack, then the explanation is that it was was both.
..
Update Jan 20: positions, chronology and speculations:
(a series of updates from Jan 21. to Jan 29. have been integrated into this section)
From what I can find:
The chronology of the video from Addounia TV is not 100% linear. Therefore I have made a new post where I attempt to establish a time line of the attack.
Journalist Patrick Vallélian tells that the first explosion happened while the journalists were at the small demonstration (about 250 meters away), and that they were encouraged to go and witness/document the attack.
In this video from France TV 2 I believe to have identified the camera on the shoulder of Christophe Kenck as he starts to move from the demonstration towards the smoke of the first explosion. Christophe Kenck was part of the team of Gilles Jacquier.
Whether it was pro or anti regime forces behind the attack, I still don't have any clear indication.
This article from Le Figaro from Le Figaro [in French] supports the possibility that the attack was a terror attack on either the pro regime neighbourhood or the pro regime demonstration. And I haven't found anything that excludes that possibility - only does the random terror bombardment seem more likely than an attempt at hitting the demonstration.
On the other hand it seems obvious that the regime could have an interest in having the international media witnessing and documenting that the regime was under attack from terrorists. That combined with the unconvincing size of the demonstration opens up for a speculation; that the "purpose" of the demonstration was to bring the media there to witness the attack. Also the amount of regime-media and the apparent focus on documenting the presence of international media could be interpreted as part of such a plan.
Such a maybe-plan might or might not have included hitting again after the media had arrived to the site.
Then there is the man showing an RPG-stabilizer and alluding to Israel being involved or the supplier. With my limited knowledge his statement is absurd - it fits with his RPG claim, but the "only from Israel" seems so obviously false that it ought to be known to be counter-productive (except mentioning Israel seems to be the trick you pull when you don't want people to think). However I can not conclude whether he is someone trying to increase the outrage on his own initiative, if the scene was instructed by others afterwards for the same reason or if it was prepared before the attack.
If my identifications of the mortar rounds are correct it will indicate a mortar like this:
2B14-1 PONDOS 82mm Mortar
Max firing range (fragmentation mortar bomb), km 4.02
Min firing range, km 0.08
Rate of fire, rds/min 20
Elevation, deg: from 45 to 85
Traverse, deg 8
Fire pattern:
in range, Epr/Xmax 1/183
in deflection, Epd, m 7
Fragmentation mortar bomb weight, kg 3.1
Weight of weapon, t 0.039
Crew 4
Unit of fire, rds 120
That assumption will place the attackers almost anywhere in the city - except the third hit (hit-03) seemed to have hit very close to the facade of the building, which could rule out the mortar being placed to the south of the site(?)
If the smoke on the other side of the street - at "the school" - was the result of a hit (hit-02) from the same mortar, then I wonder if it isn't too close to the facade for the mortar to be placed to the north of the site(?)
If it turns out the four mortar hits (or in particular hit-01 and hit-02) are seen as forming a line I also wonder if this can be used to indicate the direction from where the mortar was fired: can they be seen as forming a periphery with the mortar at the centre(?) - or would they be more likely to not have fanned out and therefore forming a line that can be extended to the origin of the firing(?) - or can no such "regularity" be expected on either factors(?)
- any answers to those questions about mortars will be appreciated.
I consider the RPG-claim to be false - but if it isn't, the picture will be even more blurred.
..
September 6th update: A piece outside the puzzle:
Back in January when I worked on this post, I was unable to find any useful explanation as to why, the man in the video (top most image) would come up with such an odd (false) name as ENERGA for the RPG warhead stabilizer. But an indication turned up, when I decided to try to identify an unusual looking grenade, seen in a video from late June this year. The video which is from Homs shows a collection of expended ammunition, and the unusual looking grenade is the second from the right in the image above. It was Australian weapons specialist Nic Jenzen-Jones (@RogueAdventurer on Twitter) who - much to my surprise - told me, that what I had presented to him was an ENERGA anti tank rifle grenade.
Compared to the image of a practice model in the Wikipedia, this grenade looks a little different, but after having looked at the few drawings and images, that I am able to find on-line, I'm - as expected - convinced that Jenzen-Jones is right.
In the left side of the image below, two cones, that I believe to match the nose cone of the ENERGA, can be seen. This to me indicates, that it is a weapon that is (or was) present in the conflict, and also that it has been used against the opposition forces/areas. So after all, in some reversed and misplaced way, the claim in the video seems to be a little less fare fetched.
A few comments about the ENERGA: from what I read, it was originally produced in Belgium from some time in the early 1950s and onward. It has since been produced in other countries too as well as being updated. At present a model developed from the ENERGA, called R1M1, is being produced in South Africa, while the production of the original model has stopped.
From following the Syrian conflict during the last year, it is my impression that the government army - quite logically - used the oldest stockpiles first. Therefore, the appearance of what could be a relatively old weapon, back in the first half of 2012, fits well in the overall picture. However I have to mention, that a lot more work would have to be done both to determine the age of the weapon, and to establish for certain, that this ENERGA grenade was fired by the Syrian government army. But I'll have to leave that to others.
* note: the grenade in the video appears to be an UXO (unexploded ordnance). This means that all the explosives are still inside, which makes it potentially lethal to handle, and to be close to.
..
On New York Times' war correspondent C.J. Chivers' blog, The Gun, you can read an insightful introduction to rifle grenades as a phenomenon. The post has the M31 rifle grenade (the US sucessor of the ENERGA) as starting point. In the post you'll also find a link to a discussion on the International Ammunition Association's forum, that has some in depth knowledge exhange about the ENERGA model (reference added 22/12/2012).
other relevant posts:
- time line (chronology of the attack studied above)
- weapons used on Homs
- mortar position, Homs
- The M5 highway, Aleppo - Damascus (Homs on the map)
- any corrections or suggestions are welcome, either as post-comments here or to my Twitter account.
..
Additional information:
(added Jan 18.)
There are two other occurrences of a men showing weapons parts to the camera. The first time the man's speech is interrupted, but at the second occurrence the persons statement is translated into "this belongs to the killers". The meaning apparently being the anti regime groups who he believes to have carried out the attack.
First occurrence (2.09):
 |
| image source: a frame from France 24 report using some of the footage from the Addounia report. |
Second occurrence (3.27):
 |
| image source: frames from an Addounia TV report up-loaded to YouTube. |
In both cases they are holding up a stem of an expended mortar round. From my goggling it seems that the length of the stem, the pattern of the holes and the number and size of the fins correspond with these two quite similar 82 mm mortar rounds:
 |
| Image sources: Fare left: from frame from France24 report. Centre left: If you know, please let me know. Centre right: from www.warfare.ru. Fare right: from photo by ColdWarWarrior. |
According to what I've found; the grey one to the left is Chinese and the green to the right is Russian. The stem from the video could look a little thicker, but given the quality of the image it is impossible to measure exactly. Anyway with my limited knowledge - and assuming the Chinese and the Russian rounds are licensed models of each other - I find it unlikely that there should be a type of mortar round with a stem that similar that isn't from the same license programme.
..
My conclusions (so fare):
The weapons types identified would all be unsurprising to find on both sides of the conflict. And even if I have an idea that the anti-regime side doesn't have a lot for mortars, the weapons do not exclude either of the sides as "suspects".
What seems worth investigating is the reason for the man at 6:30 identifying the RPG-part as Israeli.
Some of the different statements about the attack are collected in this Wiki-post about "the Siege of Homs".
There seems to be conflicting opinions of what kind of weapon was used in the attack: some say it was a mortar attack others that it was an RPG attack. If both types of weapons parts in the linked-to video are actually parts of weapons used in the attack, then the explanation is that it was was both.
..
Update Jan 20: positions, chronology and speculations:
(a series of updates from Jan 21. to Jan 29. have been integrated into this section)
From what I can find:
The chronology of the video from Addounia TV is not 100% linear. Therefore I have made a new post where I attempt to establish a time line of the attack.
Journalist Patrick Vallélian tells that the first explosion happened while the journalists were at the small demonstration (about 250 meters away), and that they were encouraged to go and witness/document the attack.
In this video from France TV 2 I believe to have identified the camera on the shoulder of Christophe Kenck as he starts to move from the demonstration towards the smoke of the first explosion. Christophe Kenck was part of the team of Gilles Jacquier.
Whether it was pro or anti regime forces behind the attack, I still don't have any clear indication.
This article from Le Figaro from Le Figaro [in French] supports the possibility that the attack was a terror attack on either the pro regime neighbourhood or the pro regime demonstration. And I haven't found anything that excludes that possibility - only does the random terror bombardment seem more likely than an attempt at hitting the demonstration.
On the other hand it seems obvious that the regime could have an interest in having the international media witnessing and documenting that the regime was under attack from terrorists. That combined with the unconvincing size of the demonstration opens up for a speculation; that the "purpose" of the demonstration was to bring the media there to witness the attack. Also the amount of regime-media and the apparent focus on documenting the presence of international media could be interpreted as part of such a plan.
Such a maybe-plan might or might not have included hitting again after the media had arrived to the site.
Then there is the man showing an RPG-stabilizer and alluding to Israel being involved or the supplier. With my limited knowledge his statement is absurd - it fits with his RPG claim, but the "only from Israel" seems so obviously false that it ought to be known to be counter-productive (except mentioning Israel seems to be the trick you pull when you don't want people to think). However I can not conclude whether he is someone trying to increase the outrage on his own initiative, if the scene was instructed by others afterwards for the same reason or if it was prepared before the attack.
If my identifications of the mortar rounds are correct it will indicate a mortar like this:
2B14-1 PONDOS 82mm Mortar
Max firing range (fragmentation mortar bomb), km 4.02
Min firing range, km 0.08
Rate of fire, rds/min 20
Elevation, deg: from 45 to 85
Traverse, deg 8
Fire pattern:
in range, Epr/Xmax 1/183
in deflection, Epd, m 7
Fragmentation mortar bomb weight, kg 3.1
Weight of weapon, t 0.039
Crew 4
Unit of fire, rds 120
That assumption will place the attackers almost anywhere in the city - except the third hit (hit-03) seemed to have hit very close to the facade of the building, which could rule out the mortar being placed to the south of the site(?)
If the smoke on the other side of the street - at "the school" - was the result of a hit (hit-02) from the same mortar, then I wonder if it isn't too close to the facade for the mortar to be placed to the north of the site(?)
If it turns out the four mortar hits (or in particular hit-01 and hit-02) are seen as forming a line I also wonder if this can be used to indicate the direction from where the mortar was fired: can they be seen as forming a periphery with the mortar at the centre(?) - or would they be more likely to not have fanned out and therefore forming a line that can be extended to the origin of the firing(?) - or can no such "regularity" be expected on either factors(?)
- any answers to those questions about mortars will be appreciated.
I consider the RPG-claim to be false - but if it isn't, the picture will be even more blurred.
..
September 6th update: A piece outside the puzzle:
 |
| cropped frame at 2:13 min. from video on معرض الحج بشير للقذائف والشظايا الحربية YouTube channel. Uploaded 22/06/2012. From left: a tail/stem from 120 mm mortar round, a tail/stem from 160 mm mortar round, an ENERGA AT grenade and what looks like one more mortar round stem that has lost the fins. |
Back in January when I worked on this post, I was unable to find any useful explanation as to why, the man in the video (top most image) would come up with such an odd (false) name as ENERGA for the RPG warhead stabilizer. But an indication turned up, when I decided to try to identify an unusual looking grenade, seen in a video from late June this year. The video which is from Homs shows a collection of expended ammunition, and the unusual looking grenade is the second from the right in the image above. It was Australian weapons specialist Nic Jenzen-Jones (@RogueAdventurer on Twitter) who - much to my surprise - told me, that what I had presented to him was an ENERGA anti tank rifle grenade.
Compared to the image of a practice model in the Wikipedia, this grenade looks a little different, but after having looked at the few drawings and images, that I am able to find on-line, I'm - as expected - convinced that Jenzen-Jones is right.
In the left side of the image below, two cones, that I believe to match the nose cone of the ENERGA, can be seen. This to me indicates, that it is a weapon that is (or was) present in the conflict, and also that it has been used against the opposition forces/areas. So after all, in some reversed and misplaced way, the claim in the video seems to be a little less fare fetched.
 |
| cropped frame at 2:52 min. from video on معرض الحج بشير للقذائف والشظايا الحربية YouTube channel. Uploaded 22/06/2012. |
A few comments about the ENERGA: from what I read, it was originally produced in Belgium from some time in the early 1950s and onward. It has since been produced in other countries too as well as being updated. At present a model developed from the ENERGA, called R1M1, is being produced in South Africa, while the production of the original model has stopped.
From following the Syrian conflict during the last year, it is my impression that the government army - quite logically - used the oldest stockpiles first. Therefore, the appearance of what could be a relatively old weapon, back in the first half of 2012, fits well in the overall picture. However I have to mention, that a lot more work would have to be done both to determine the age of the weapon, and to establish for certain, that this ENERGA grenade was fired by the Syrian government army. But I'll have to leave that to others.
* note: the grenade in the video appears to be an UXO (unexploded ordnance). This means that all the explosives are still inside, which makes it potentially lethal to handle, and to be close to.
..
On New York Times' war correspondent C.J. Chivers' blog, The Gun, you can read an insightful introduction to rifle grenades as a phenomenon. The post has the M31 rifle grenade (the US sucessor of the ENERGA) as starting point. In the post you'll also find a link to a discussion on the International Ammunition Association's forum, that has some in depth knowledge exhange about the ENERGA model (reference added 22/12/2012).
other relevant posts:
- time line (chronology of the attack studied above)
- weapons used on Homs
- mortar position, Homs
- The M5 highway, Aleppo - Damascus (Homs on the map)
- any corrections or suggestions are welcome, either as post-comments here or to my Twitter account.
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